DwD Studios

You mean +1 for that use? That's difficult given that you already rolled. So I guess you mean a permanent +1, which seems kind of quick progression. Because crit successes get rolled a lot compared to other games. What should normally take 30 or more sessions to accomplish, you could accomplish in 7.

But then logic would suggest the inverse for a critical failure.

So if using a LOG roll for spellcasting and you get a critical result, would LOG go up by 1 point? Or would Spellcasting go up by one point (which would be harder to track)?

This is very interesting. Takes a little sting out of critical failures.

Or do you mean this would apply to Automatic Successes and Failures (00-05, 95-99)?

If the number is permanent then I think critical successes should raise the number up. They are representative of breakthroughs, epiphanies, and moments of clarity. A critical failure should reduce that number downward. Failures are indicative of trial and error, going back to the drawing board, and miscalculation in previously established theory. At least this way the number would always be in balance and be a more accurate representation of the learning processes it's attempting to characterize.

It needs some kind of limit. It could really get out of control, swinging way up and swinging way down. That's not exactly indicative of epiphany or "back to the drawing board". Most people don't lose all of their skill just because of a string of failures, nor does their skill enhance across the board just because of one epiphany. For instance, just because he realizes how to trick shot an arrow doesn't mean he's going to become a better striker with a sword.

The value could never be negative. If the value would fluctuate to much then impose a limit of how often it can be modified by criticals that are rolled. Maybe only adjust it for every 5 or 10 criticals.

Example: During a game session or two a character rolls critical values 10 times. 7 are failures and 3 are successes. The critical attribute moves down a number to reflect the average of his most experiences. Instead of making it representative of skill it could be reflective of a PC's "mojo".

When I read the description for the stat I assumed that each of the four attributes would have its own critical number that would move up and down based on critical rolls specifically made when testing against that attribute. So it isn't the first 10 criticals you roll, but the first 5 or 10 criticals for LOG or for STR.

Ultimately the question is, why is this number important in the first place? What do you want it to represent? I like the idea of measuring mojo, luck, juju, "i'm on fire!", boom-shaka-laka-ness, etc... In my opinion I do not see the need for it to be added unless you're doing it to add more flair to characters and/or the game.

He said "any critical result".

I'm not concerned with negative values.

Now, maybe if you just wanted it to translate to a +5/-5 modifier to your next role using the skill, rather than a bump in level, then that's a little better. But really, going from first level to sixth level in a single adventure just because you rolled well doesn't make any sense. Likewise, falling from sixth level to first level just because of a string of crit failures doesn't make any sense either. And I could see it being a real pain for your players having to record the skills and abilities over and over and make adjustments accordingly, along with the disappointment when losing levels, and even a frustration at the levels ever in flux and never maintaining in the high end.

Then there's the matter that it would cause skill advancement to be completely meaningless.

The fact is, the die roll is already supposed to handle fluctuations in ability. That string of dice roll failures just means you're going through a slump. There's no reason the person should be punished further and have to deal with increased chances of further failures.

If you want to keep your players, then stability in advancement is needed.

I thought we were talking about a single floating modifier that was applied to rolls made using the attribute in question, NOT a level. That would be ridiculous. Example: My crit number for logic is +3. Next time I make a roll against LOG it will be LOG + any other modifiers + 3 (crit modifier in question).

If the ability increases for crit success/fail, you'll have to re-calculate all your skills.

In malakor's example it only effects the skill used and is recorded separately on the character sheet. The Score formula would look like this: Half the listed Ability, +10 per Level, +20 if Primary skill, +10 if Secondary skill, +1 for each Crit fail/success roll = Score

Using malakor's game option, a character would have a 10% chance every time he made a skill check to gain +1 to that particular skill. Characters would get better without expending DP.

Observation completed. Resetting coffee maker. ;-)

I like the idea of a +/-5 to your next roll with that skill. That sounds like a good benefit that shouldn't get out of control.

Players could also get worse according to his description.

And remember, the ability has no limits. It's for EVERY crit with the skill.

I stand corrected. My entire thought process was based on the idea of a floating modifier that existed to measure success and failure gained through critical experienced. If we're talking actual skill levels then that is a different beast altogether.

I think perhaps I didn't describe my houserule clearly.

Example: Joe the Swift has a Warrior skill of 54% total (all modifiers added in). During combat he rolls a critical success, he gains a +1 bonus, permanently increasing his skill to 55%. If he rolls a critical failure, he also gains a +1, let's say he did so in the same combat, permanently increasing his skill immediately to 56%.

This would NOT apply to straight ability checks, typically.

Does not apply to automatic success/failure rolls, only to Critical Success and Failures (doubles, if I recall correctly).

I've use the same system for years with Runequest and similar d100 games and it has added a nice "Woo Hoo" element, even when you have a critical failure. I also tend to let my players describe what happens when they crit, so we get some interesting descriptions going on (my group has no problem with giving themselves a hindrance from a crit, and the +1 gives them a benefit even then).

I'd have to try it in play with BBf, but I can't imagine that it would be much different than with the other games I've ran, and I've never had a problem with excessive increases in skill.

Oh, and I've used doubles for crits instead of the standard RQ crit range for quite some time, so the math should work out the same, I would imagine.

Now, should any of you try this and it hoses progression, please let us know, and when I start running, I'll do the same.

thanks for the feedback

oh, and if your players have a tendency to have 'lucky' or 'unlucky' streaks, limit it to one increase per session/combat, or whatever

So the skill increases by +1 with both critical successes AND critical failures?

I did catch that little caveat from the beginning. At my table I'd move it up and down. Maybe moving it down wouldn't be able to take the skill lower than it was before you starting adding in the crit rule, but the overall bonus the crit rule adds should be a number that goes up and down in my not so humble opinion =P

Yes, it absolutely increases with Success and Failure is what I intended. It is meant to represent learning from adversity. If you wanted to put some wiggle room in that (and add more complexity), you could always require a successful LOG roll or something so that it would apply.

Moving it up and down wouldn't be a bad idea, Mulsiphix, and if you had an additional column on the character sheet for recording the Critical results, then it would be simpler as well, since you could just say that the Crit number would never be a negative.

This makes me ponder whether adding a bit more complexity (i.e., NOT improving with failure always) might be worthwhile. I'll give this some thought, but will probably continue in the method I've been using.

Once again, thanks for all the discussion, it is helpful.

+1 to the skill roll (or -1 to the target number of the skilled attempt), and not the skill level, with a LOG check, definitely sounds doable.

Anytime. This has definitely been my favorite rule theory thread here to date.

+1

The spirit of this game option is pretty cool--criticals (good or bad) build experience. Just realize that this will have a significant effect on how quickly characters advance.

In d00, criticals occur 10% of the time (one in ten dice rolls). So after a game session with three or four combat encounters of around five turns each, your characters could have earned somewhere in the range of 3-6 extra points to their relevant skill. That's above the DP they'll get at the end of the session.

So, to put this in perspective: Larry Moore and R. E. Davis have noted that at the regular DP progression, a character can gain all 6 skill levels if they dump all of their DP into buying levels of that skill for 10-15 sessions on average. If they are also gaining (we'll go conservative) 3 points per session on criticals, they will be 30 to 45 points ahead of other level 6 skill characters.

So--cool idea, but as a GM you will need to amp up the opposition quite a bit to pose a challenge for high-ranking characters under this game option!

Precisely. It turns into Gods and demigods.