Do game mechanics and theme have an inexorable tie to one another? Are universal systems less embraced because of this?
We were wondering about the waxing/waning popularity of truly universal systems. HERO system and GURPS come initially to mind, but don't forget the Unisystem, FATE, d20 System, World of Darkness, Palladium, and the many others whose mechanics have been represented in multiple genres. We discuss this as we work on new d00lite offerings such as FrontierSpace and Malevolent Domain... is it doing a disservice to each genre to adhere to a specific mechanical foundation?
Now don't get me wrong, we're not just rehashing old rules and pasting a different theme on it. Each offering stands alone in many ways. Look at what Covert Ops offered that made it specifically modern/espionage... entire new subsystems, generators, and pages and pages of researched thematic spy tropes to help a GM create exciting adventures. But... under the hood... despite the added rules to govern that which fantasy lacked... it's still the same basic system as BareBones Fantasy. Is that a good thing? Are we at DwD Studios inadvertently creating a universal game system? Or are the thematically-induced changes to each iteration enough to make each one stand alone as its own product?
I am personally not a huge fan of truly universal systems. I've said that from the beginning of my game creator's journey. I've played and enjoyed individual campaigns in universal systems, but once I started playing the other genres in those systems it felt like I was playing that first game again, with different pasted-on trappings. GURPS is specifically bad for me in that regard. I played fantasy GURPS for a few years and enjoyed it a lot, but once I tried to do a GURPS sci fi or supers game... it still felt like that first fantasy experience with guns. These are the types of issues I've always had with universal systems.
So why are we clinging to our d00lite system (at least for the offerings currently under development)? Well the short answer is the simplest: we enjoy playing it. It's not about us making cookie-cutter games (I think anyone who has purchased both BareBones Fantasy and Covert Ops will see that, despite foundational similarities, they're quite different games). It's not about us being able to more rapidly create content that spans the products (in fact, it's not as easy as one would think at first-blush to meld our two first offerings together, as some have tried). It's not about riding a cash cow until it keels over (none of us are getting rich off any of this).
No - it's much simpler than any of that. The d00lite rules are just what we like to play. Period. We enjoy percentile systems and always have. We find the game easy to teach, easy to play, and the mechanics are simple enough to stay out of the way of good storytelling. So as we continue to develop new games, at least for the FrontierSpace and Malevolent Domain games, expect similar foundations. But don't expect cookie-cutter. Each game will stand alone and drip with theme. We hope you all enjoy the games we make, and we really hope none of you ever get the feeling that we've pasted a theme on a game designed for something else.
-Dice high,
Bill Logan
I'm working on a universal set of rules compatible with d00Lite myself.
However, I have been convinced for some time that the reason that universal systems are not as popular as they could be is because they do not provide a boxed setting, or else they market it to too narrow an audience. (The very name "heroes" suggests a supers system and is marketed with the appearance of comic books. "Savage Worlds" suggests a very specific theme, and indeed its mechanics promote a very special kind of feel in its worlds.) That is why my universal rules will have specific settings associated with Fantasy, Modern and Future, with races and skills specific to each, but each uniquely its own, not being given too narrow a marketing focus.
You see, people like to have their imaginations sparked by a pre-designed setting. They do not necessarily have to, or want to, use the setting out of the box, but may modify it to their liking. But they do not usually want to create a whole setting from scratch. That is why d20 Modern was so popular. (Though the d20 system tended to be very imposing upon any setting, in which you always felt like you were playing in a d20 universe.) They provided settings for people to explore, instead of just giving them mechanics and letting them do it themselves.
Some settings require a specific mechanic, or else a mechanic is particularly suited to the setting and may even be very distinguishable because of the unique mechanic. For example, most horror games have a sanity mechanic, while more specifically, Vampire the Masquerade has the Bloodlines mechanic, D&D has the alignment mechanic. Those latter two are very much linked to the setting. But generally, the system as a whole, is not necessarily linked to the setting, though it can provide a particular texture to the setting, which makes the setting experience different from system to system. So, yes, the setting and mechanics are linked, but no, a setting is not usually defined by its mechanics. The Star Wars franchise has done fine moving from system to system.
I think that the Lite nature of d00Lite is what makes it the best for any setting. It does not impose itself upon the setting. Except for the bones mechanic, the d00Lite system seems to try hard to work in the background. That said, the way to make one setting not feel so cookie-cutter is to give it a unique mechanic all its own that is not used in other settings. (Providing a unique set of skills and races helps.) You could actually use the Bones mechanic to your advantage, in this respect, by providing a unique set of bones for each setting, as I demonstrated the unique Backbone Bone for a horror setting in one of the threads the other week. While it is another sanity mechanic, basing it on the existing Bones mechanic gives it a unique feel to your system, as well as to the setting itself.
Personally I like universal systems as they allow me to play various genres with the same engine. However it is also true that many universal rules systems exist in a vacuum. GURPS or Savage Worlds are cool systems that can be hacked into everything, but they are not really properly setting skinned. I think your D00lite games do not have that Problem as each is packed with a light setting. However for me they are still kind of universal as you could run pretty much everything. There are not that many unique mechanics between BBF and Covert Ops. There are some differences but I did not catch anything major. And Bones can be ported to BBF easily. I think that is the charm also. They are games on their own but you can mix and match them with each other like adding BBF monsters to Covert ops for a supernatural feel. Each adds new resources to the D00lite toolbox and that is why I love your stuff. The Foundation is so much in the background that it not dominates and you can easily tack on other systems and mechanics to make it unique.
However, I have been convinced for some time that the reason that universal systems are not as popular as they could be is because they do not provide a boxed setting, or else they market it to too narrow an audience. (The very name "heroes" suggests a supers system and is marketed with the appearance of comic books. "Savage Worlds" suggests a very specific theme, and indeed its mechanics promote a very special kind of feel in its worlds.) That is why my universal rules will have specific settings associated with Fantasy, Modern and Future, with races and skills specific to each, but each uniquely its own, not being given too narrow a marketing focus.
You see, people like to have their imaginations sparked by a pre-designed setting. They do not necessarily have to, or want to, use the setting out of the box, but may modify it to their liking. But they do not usually want to create a whole setting from scratch. That is why d20 Modern was so popular. (Though the d20 system tended to be very imposing upon any setting, in which you always felt like you were playing in a d20 universe.) They provided settings for people to explore, instead of just giving them mechanics and letting them do it themselves.
Some settings require a specific mechanic, or else a mechanic is particularly suited to the setting and may even be very distinguishable because of the unique mechanic. For example, most horror games have a sanity mechanic, while more specifically, Vampire the Masquerade has the Bloodlines mechanic, D&D has the alignment mechanic. Those latter two are very much linked to the setting. But generally, the system as a whole, is not necessarily linked to the setting, though it can provide a particular texture to the setting, which makes the setting experience different from system to system. So, yes, the setting and mechanics are linked, but no, a setting is not usually defined by its mechanics. The Star Wars franchise has done fine moving from system to system.
I think that the Lite nature of d00Lite is what makes it the best for any setting. It does not impose itself upon the setting. Except for the bones mechanic, the d00Lite system seems to try hard to work in the background. That said, the way to make one setting not feel so cookie-cutter is to give it a unique mechanic all its own that is not used in other settings. (Providing a unique set of skills and races helps.) You could actually use the Bones mechanic to your advantage, in this respect, by providing a unique set of bones for each setting, as I demonstrated the unique Backbone Bone for a horror setting in one of the threads the other week. While it is another sanity mechanic, basing it on the existing Bones mechanic gives it a unique feel to your system, as well as to the setting itself.
I'm looking forward to seeing what you put together for a universal system. Bones don't work in every setting. I love 'em for Covert Ops, but in hindsight I probably should have named them something different for he spy genre. Luck points, Action points, Awesomeness, whatever :-P
Bill, I thought the post-apocalypse setting you mentioned was going to feature horror rules?
Malevolent Domain has Despair rules. Basically WIL checks when faced with the grim reality of the world with specific consequences for failure, often with humanity slipping away slowly until we're all monsters. It also highlights the need to acquire a Safehaven... a place that is safe, secure, and has some semblance of the trappings of former life. Resting in a safehaven between sessions is important, as it is the only way to recover depleted Bones and BP at their normal rates. Without it, you can't recover these things as quickly and you'll start your next session still hurt and morally bankrupt. And what's worse... the more people you have in your safe haven, the harder it is to qualify as one because of all the amenities a large group requires in order to feel safe and secure and a semblance of normalcy. The theme of the game is hopelessness and despair, and what players choose to do in the hopeless disparaging situation. I'm trying to capture that theme in mechanics as best I can without it becoming a metagame-like thing.
Okay. Thanks. I'll go ahead and submit that collaborative Backbone article.
This sounds fantastic. I was lukewarm on malevolent domain but after that little blurb about safe havens I am intrigued. Sounds very clever.
The mashups can work very easily, using skills only from COPS and Monsters from BBF would be enough to make it work I would think. At least good enough that no one would see the seams during play.
Personally, I'm a huge fan of universal systems. I played HERO for decades (I'd point out, it didn't really start universal. They had genre rules in early Espionage! and Justice Inc, for example, that were not the same as Champions - everyone just mashed them together, anyway, so a universal baby was inevitable). A lot of times, you'd come up with a tweak or two to fit your theme and then run with it. So maybe I'm more a fan of a "universal foundation."
The advantage of a universal system is that you don't have to keep learning new rules or convincing your players to learn new rules (they often resist).
I've found my players really, really dig the d00lite system. I'm looking forward to more d00lite games. I'm totally cool with "d00lite foundation" games that have genre tweaks and rule systems. This allows the easy import of other systems from d00lite games we find we really like.
I don't really need a "super powers" rules system when I'm playing a down to earth spy game. But if I wanted to include psychics or something similarly out there, having a superhero game on the same foundation means I just add that component. If I was doing something sci fi using FrontierSpace, maybe that super powers element would work for making some more far out aliens. Or maybe in a zombie game, I want to simulate some of the crazier zombie stuff you see in video games (10 meter tongues and exploding poison spores?), I could pull from another game in the same system. Same for fantasy with some freaky new monsters.
While a universal, all bases covered, system can do this it doesn't have the benefit of theme. It also creates an entry barrier. I need the rules AND the setting book? Themed games let you buy a whole game with the setting and grow later if you have any need (or like to tinker). Everyone at the salad bar is given the same plate and fork. That's the mechanics. What you put on that plate is the theme (all pasta? a green salad? nothing but olives? Ok!)
Sorry for writing so much - In essence, I like universal foundations. It lets me experiment with new themes and ideas without having to start from scratch and without prohibitive investments in time.
I actually stumbled upon BareBones Fantasy while looking for a rules liteish universal system. I like a system that I can use from game to game without having to start from scratch. I would expect to tailor some rules to specific settings, for instance, I'm working on a BBF hack of Dark Sun and I knew I would need to create a Psion skill. Dark Sun just wouldn't be complete without it. I have yet to pick up Covert Ops, though I plan to soon, but I'll be hacking it to play a Western game based off of the television show "Supernatural". I'm sure I will need to make some changes, but the d00Lite rules seem like a good jumping off point for nearly anything I'm interested in running. When we get Star Frontiers I'll jump off from there with a Firefly game, again with the expectation that I will need to hack it a bit.
Such deep thinking going on here! At this time and place I have room for just a few blurts.
I learned about RPGs through D&D but I really got into it with Star Frontiers since, as you know, it packed a whole lot of RPG revelations in a $10 box at the time! Percentile odds, intuitively easy to grasp, no problem. Even D&D and d20 stuff I could accept after that as a KIND of percentile with chunky 5% intervals and a let's-not-cut-it-finer-than-that attitude.
But, whoa! After that the games seemed to do everything to disguise a straightforward feel for the odds. GURPS: 3D6 base. Shadowrun: dice pools asking to turn up a success of 5-6 on each die, count the successes, and ??? And I read through the problematic Traveller 5th-edition six-pound book released last year, which says the difficulty of a task sets a number of D (d6) where you must roll lower than a set Characteristic + Skill number, and they put up-front some wild probability tables that it generates in per cent (too scary; they should have put it as an appendix.)
A universal games system is not going to be one-size-fits-all. I've been reading all the FATE Core rules and the FATE System Toolkit is interesting. The FATE system minimizes numbers and brings out character and story elements they call Aspects, and you marshal any aspects that can bring an advantage and you get +2 for each. The FATE Accelerated "quickstart" book (50-pages) is a go-anywhere genre-free game without even any skills in it, but "approaches" to doing things, and from the characters detailed demonstrates doing a few genres with it (it is suggested this rules-light version can be played by children and the art is correspondingly cutesier). They don't worry about stats; if your character can be expected to do certain tasks routinely, he does them! In regular FATE Core (300 digest-sized pages easy on the eyes), there is a set of 18 skills. The combat skills are Fight (melee) and Shoot -- that's it. Degree of damage is based on the degree of success of your role compared to an opponent's defense (whatever it was: Acrobatics, Armor, whatever.)
But the FATE System Toolkit explains that you can customize the backbone of the system if you want. Several styles of magic are described which are tailored to your setting: how common or rare magic is, how easy or difficult, and where the magic ultimately comes from, with fundamental story considerations used to tailor your own magic system. Depending on the approach, magic can appear in different game mechanics as Aspects, Skills, Stunts or Extras. The emphasis is still on bringing out the interesting verbal descriptions while letting the framework be loose, with little number-crunching.
Settings have to be more carefully presented nowadays. I think the young'uns read fewer books. We had big SF and fantasy collections before we had RPG collections. So we probably had less trouble writing stuff with fantasy and science-fiction themes and, indeed, the oldest games said, "Here's the framework -- have at it!" But the new generation reads less and so the market has responded with tight, ready-made settings incorporated into the rules. Setting info is easier to churn out than rules mechanics (which has to be tested and balanced and made consistent), so what kind of books are publishers going to bring out disproportionately if each book fetches the same profit? You have two guesses, and the first one doesn't count! (*cough* Rifts *cough*)
That is an interesting point about the necessity of tight settings because kids don't read. I really do not know if it is true or not. My sample size is my kids and their friends who are book readers like I was when I was a kid.
Aren't gamers generally bookworms? I just don't have enough of a cross section of gamers available to me to have any feel for that.
Mark M.
I was a bookworm because of role-playing games.
I was a bookworm long before I discovered gaming.
I read comic books and loved movies. I never was much of a reader (except those old Choose Your Own Adventure ones).
I read more now since I'm up all night, but mostly I watch TV or movies (no, my job doesn't require much attention from me).
I think you'll find a lot of games these days have a more cinematic feel - trying to get the feel of what characters do on the screen, some of them come right out and describe creating stories the way a TV show is constructed and uses those terms (first to come to mind is Robin Laws, but he's kind of known for trying to capture the essence of other media like TV or video games). Also, licensed products are coming from the screen, too, probably close to the number based on books & comics. Even the One Ring probably has a lot of its push due to the success of the flicks.
Or, I may have no idea what I'm talking about :) YMMV
That is interesting. When I describe role playing to the unwashed I usually use a movie approach, "YOu know when you watch a movie and the hero does something stupid and you are yelling at the screen,'NO DON'T DO IT", well in role playing you are the actor, you decide what to do."
Mark M.
Mark M.
I usually still end up doing something stupid